I Don’t Know
IDK what I want to talk about so I'll talk about a little bit of everything that interests me.
I Don’t Know
Torre's Logic
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Katrina Mondragon, MS, LPC, LMHC and Special Guest, Torre!!!
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Join us as Torre Talks more words of wisdom on this week's episode of I Don't Know, streaming everywhere under the artist name katrinadragon
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Greetings, fellow humans. Katrina here. Quick disclaimer. I'm professional, not your professional, so nothing we should talk about today. It should be taken the medical, legal, or otherwise advice is podcasts, field for education and amusement. That's the disclaimer. And I'd like to welcome Tori back.
SPEAKER_00I mean that's not, you know, to say anything about religion. I don't think it's that, as much as, for example, we can exaggerate disaster, right? The fact that, you know, some people are bothered by hurricanes and you know, Florida on a visceral level and Illinois is a sign of stress, right? High stimulation. And I think that that's a good sort of generic example of how logical error can create a different form of reality in our heads. And I like to tell people that one of my biggest lessons within spiritual teaching was that we we have two versions of reality. There is real life and the real world, and then there is reality. So there's facts and reality. And that reality is where you know humans have come together to agree that society is this thing we all participate in, right?
SPEAKER_01I like to differentiate too that feelings are not facts. They're valid, they're always valid, they're real, but they're not facts.
SPEAKER_00And you know, that's a big part of that is that emotions create the reality, but they are not the facts of the reality, right? And so that's a that leads us to believe that, well, reality is this dualistic thing we're experiencing, you know. Like we know that there's all of this baseline reality that we experience that it it really boils down to survival, right? And just moving with day and moon cycles, and that's really pretty much what life is about and everything else.
SPEAKER_01But I think we're getting a full moon in a few days, the 29th. I think so.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm I'm I'm honestly am a bad witch in that I don't keep track of I I follow more of the solar cycles because there's less of them and it's easier, but also my whole practice is really rooted in more solar stuff these days. And I've never been great at tracking moon cycles, other than knowing like which one it is. Like I believe it's the buck moon because we're in January. Excuse me, we're in July. Duh.
SPEAKER_01Wow, time travel just now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was thinking about the cold moon, and like I was yeah, just remembering a ritual I'd done actually with just kind of divergent thinking. But yeah, so a huge aspect of that is like our emotions and our logical fallacies, our errors that we make, they can create a different reality than logical fallacies are hilarious.
SPEAKER_01Can you name off a few? Like besides straw man or ad hominem, do you know a few more?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a false, I think it's false flag or false call to action, and that's really about false petitioning people, right? If you think about a lot of like, you know, and I don't honestly mind where people place their political beliefs, but if you look at some of the logical fallacies on a political level, they're often rooted in religion, and then using this sort of false pennants that you might pay as a reason to align your value set with them more, right? We see that a lot in deeply conservative thinking on the red side, and maybe even a splinter or so on the you know liberal side with people as well, where religion is a huge backbone of why they make decisions in kind of a tangent, but I wrote a paper in college on the uh advantages and disadvantages of religiosity and spirituality practices.
SPEAKER_01And so I went through like point by point the good and the not so good between the religious and spiritual, and I differentiated between the two. I don't know how you differentiate, but I do not think spiritual means religious.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, no, I would say we probably like 99.9% agree, you know, entirely on that definition, especially using religiosity as a you know, sort of pronoun or ver adverb for religion in extremist action, you know, where you see religion sort of become the backbone of a reason to act extreme. And again, I think that's a good example of a logical fallacy, right? Because I believe what I believe, it must mean that I can only be a better believer if I take it to this degree, you know, and sort of contrary to the mere principles of their religious teachings, anyway. And we could, you know, it's not just evangelical or Christian or Mormon or what have you, it's a lot of major stream, mainstream believers and religions uh, period, that tend to do that. Mainly because, right, they're conflicted between a religious reality and a physical world that they live in and are bound to with other people. And so there's facts in the empirical observable world they're stuck in, but then there's also this reality they choose to believe in. And you know, I do that in my own way. I'm not gonna say I don't, right? But I think that that's a big component of that duality. And for me, duality is a huge component of how I sort of I would say it's the synthesis of my whole like belief system on that spiritual. Yes, so opposites can exist, actually, is how I would boil it down. Opposite, you can believe in you two opposite concepts or realities or facts can coexist somehow.
SPEAKER_01The sun can be shining and it can be raining outside, right?
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And it can, it's the law of contraries, right? And honestly, even mainstream religion teaches us this. You know, if you look at why Eve, you know, I I don't want to blame Eve, I never did, but you know, the Bible is like Eve ate the fruit, and that's why we all believe and think the way we do, and like why it's hard to be alive, and like why we can be such beautiful, awesome things, but then also think really bad things, you know. And it's like, did you see the Barbie movie? Yes. You know, like the scene where she's dancing and she's just like, Do you ever think about death sometimes? Like, I think like that's such a beautiful moment of duality that they just worked in there, unlike like even Barbie is having logical fallacies that are causing cognitive dissonance.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned something that you said bad thoughts. I don't believe in that. So that's one of the things I don't believe in good or bad thoughts, they just are thoughts, and then it's our behavior that matters.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, again, I think like I I want to give a disclaimer, like, those aren't my opinions, but that is what's like maybe written in the word, right? And like that's how it's surmised, even though I do disagree with that summary. Like, obviously, how can you blame one person for why humans are the way they are that doesn't even add up, right? On any level, like like if everything else were true, I would still disagree when I got to there, right, to have that discussion. So, that all being what it is, like it's poised, as if Eve, you know, she gave us bad thinking, you know, the the derelict thoughts that we can have and the wild primal thinking, those are considered bad, and Eve opened the box, right, and let all that out. And that's sort of the the uh accusation against Eve. But if you actually look at tying it in with more so the Judeo-Christian or Jewish myth uh mythos behind a lot of that story in its original context, it's really just about this Eve and Adam or whoever really, you know, who knows, but whoever was in that moment was really existing in this sort of eternal state of being, right? Beyond time. And if you're beyond time, then you're beyond differentiation, right?
SPEAKER_01Who you are is who you are. What is your belief about time? Like, is it a human construct? Is it linear?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I jump, I don't really have a good argument for time. I jump around a lot. Even someone who spiritually looks at time in a lot of different angles, I'd say it's it's hard to really place. I think probably the best opinion on time is that it is the fourth dimension of being a physical being. Uh, but what does that really say? You know, I mean, do we really understand being three-dimensional? So, yeah, and I I think like for me, that's kind of where I humble myself with some of the larger things, without looking to conspire in my own philosophies and spiritual beliefs to come up with an explanation necessarily. I don't really need an explanation.
SPEAKER_01My agnosticism comes in. I I think of it in the literal sense of agnostic, I am without knowledge. Like, I don't know. Yeah, hence the name of the podcast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. And I think that that's such a a centrality to have in your spiritual understanding of everything. Like, yeah, you know, I could be into the arcane arts, I could do cosmogeny with you, I could do astrology, or you know, go into all of you know, let's talk about metaphysical time. But I think that there's just so much more to discuss about it. Like, I'm just one person that like you really need to have a discussion with a physicist if you're religious. And if you're if you're a physicist, you should discuss it with religious people. And I think that's my wisdom on it because I really have locked that intersection in between them. And the more I practice spirituality, I have a deeper regard for the what those words even could mean. And then the more I learn about science and practice science, it's like there's this same degree of like empirical beauty to just how matter is being matter. You know, it's such an interesting thing, and I think I can see how that piousness is the same extreme for both religious and scientists alike. Yeah, that like sheer devotion and like sort of blind faith in what you're doing and why you think it matters, and putting this like full-on worship on what it is, you know, it's saying yeah, yeah. And I would say we see that obviously on the religiously extreme, good or bad, but then also scientists, good and bad. And I think actually we're in a time when mad science is prevailing more than good science, unfortunately. And we're starting to look more like a Jimmy uh apocalyptic Jimmy Neutron future than one that's rooted in sustainability or even utopia, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Let's see. Well, I think that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for joining us. And